If you’ve listened to past episodes of the “Gov & Beyond” podcast, you know about the unique perspectives you can glean as Luca Pagni and Joyson Cherian interview members of the government tech media on what makes them tick. In the latest episode, you will get all that, as Luca and Joyson interview two leaders from SIGNAL Media, the AFCEA media arm: Editor-In-Chief George Seffers and Kimberly Underwood, director of digital media.
But beyond that, you get a bonus this time. In this joint episode, which will also be available via the SIGNAL Media website, you’ll also hear George and Kim interview Luca and Joyson about how they work with their clients on pitches and content for publications like SIGNAL. This discussion draws back the curtain to give both sides a glimpse into what happens behind the scenes at a major Defense tech media outlet as well as at a longstanding PR agency focused on helping to give those editors information and content from their clients.
Their Paths to SIGNAL
In his role at SIGNAL Media, George oversees the day-to-day news reporting – supervising reporters, assigning articles and editing content. Kim has dual roles: She reports on the Air Force/Space Force beat, and as director for digital media, she helps coordinate online production, including article submissions from outside authors. She also works on the outlet’s multimedia presence in areas such as video news recording and, of course, podcasting.
For the purposes of this blog, I’ll focus more on what I learned about George and Kim from this podcast. For one thing, they followed different paths to their jobs at SIGNAL. George said he knew he wanted to be a journalist from a young age and actually enlisted in the Army with the intention of learning journalism while in the service – although it didn’t quite work out that way. However, he found his way into a career in journalism after leaving the Army and writing for Defense News and Federal Computer Week (me too, George!). He even did some corporate communications work for Raytheon and for Northrop Grumman before finally finding his way to SIGNAL more than 16 years ago.
Kim also knew early on that she wanted to write, but began her career writing about the energy industry – sometimes writing 200-page reports (which sounds less than energizing). From there, she moved to a new job focused on covering legal issues before getting hired by George at SIGNAL eight years ago.
Both George and Kim expressed great satisfaction in their roles supporting and reporting on the activities of those in the military services, as well as the technologies that enable their missions. The number of years they have worked for SIGNAL Media speaks volumes.
How to Place an Article in SIGNAL
As the flagship media organization of AFCEA, a nonprofit organization that describes its mission as one that “enables military, government, industry and academia to align technology and strategy to meet the needs of those who serve,” SIGNAL holds a unique position as a venue that allows Defense technology leaders and contractors to share information. So in their unique roles overseeing what gets published in this important outlet, George and Kim have very specific views on the types of content that make it into print.
So when pitching to Kim, know that she prefers you do more than tell her about the cool technology you provide. She loves it when contractors also connect her with an end user to interview, or a researcher or representative from academia who can offer a third-party validation of the value of the solution.
George told Luca and Joyson about one of the more successful pitches to him from a contractor that resulted in an article seen by someone at the Pentagon who asked George to connect him with the contractor. If there was ever any doubt that press exposure gets the attention of potential customers, that anecdote should dispel them.
“We see SIGNAL Magazine as a news source for solutions, so we’re looking for people who can identify a challenge or technology gap and then provide a solution without being self-promotional,” George said in the podcast. “…And so that’s really what we look for. We look for news, information, ideas, innovations that are going to help the military and national security community accomplish the mission.”
If you give them an article that recounts the same message they’ve seen in other articles or heard countless times at conferences they attend, forget it! They want writers who have the courage to say something new or different. As Kim told Luca and Joyson: “I hope your clients are brave like that and realize, yeah, they have a unique perspective to offer, because that is what we’re looking for.”
In the podcast, you’ll also hear about how George hates cilantro (I’m with you again, George), and Kim prefers not to eat dishes with ingredients made from bugs (really!). She also has little tolerance for violent or misogynist rap music, while George recounts how a song by Toto literally made him swear off listening to the radio.
Timestamps
0:50 – George’s and Kim’s roles at SIGNAL Media
3:38 – Flipping the script: Joyson and Luca’s background and roles
6:25 – Shaping communications around emerging technologies
9:10 – How Kim and George got into covering the Defense industry
10:50 – Luca and Joyson’s path to public sector PR
13:55 – Core topics piquing George and Kim’s interest: AI, military modernization and robots?
16:22 – Technologies that Luca and Joyson find to be “Disruptive by Design”
20:10 – The types of clients we work with at W2 Communications
23:41 – What makes a compelling source to the SIGNAL Media team
27:05 – The keys to getting thought leadership published
33:21 – SIGNAL Media movie night – the Jason Bourne trilogy, Notting Hill and The Hunt for Red October
34:12 – “Hold the Line” on playing Toto around George or rap music around Kim
36:39 – Staying in touch with George and Kim
Transcript
Intro: Welcome to Gov & Beyond. I’m your host. Luca Pagni, here with my cohost Joyson Cherian. This podcast features conversations with the newsmakers and influencers at the center of today’s public sector news cycles from our studio at W2 Communications, let’s go Gov & Beyond.
Luca Pagni (LP): Welcome everyone to “Gov & Beyond.” I’m your host Luca Pagni here with my cohost, Joyson Cherian. Today, we’re excited to be hosting a special crossover episode of our podcast with SIGNAL Media and their “Disrupted by Design” podcast. On this special podcast, we’re sitting down with SIGNAL Magazine’s editor-in-chief, George Seffers, along with his colleague, Kim Underwood, director of Digital News Media at SIGNAL Media, and host of SIGNAL’s “Disrupted by Design” podcast. Thank you both for joining us.
George Seffers (GS): Thank you for having us.
Kim Underwood (KU): Thank you guys.
LP: Well, George, Kim, we’d love to start off by having you both tell us a little bit more about your respective backgrounds and roles at SIGNAL. So George, would love to start with you.
GS: Okay, great. Thank you, and thanks for having us on this podcast. We’ve worked with W2 [Communications] a lot over the years, and it’s always a pleasure. As editor-in-chief, I oversee the day-to-day news reporting for SIGNAL Media, supervising reporters, assigning articles, editing articles, and I also coordinate the Cyber Edge Writing Award that we host annually. And I coordinate the article submissions from subject matter experts. As far as my background, I spent seven years in the Army Signal Corps, reported for Defense News and Federal Computer Week, and I did some corporate communications for Raytheon and for Northrop Grumman, before returning to journalism here at SIGNAL more than 16 years ago.
KU: Sure, and as director of digital news media. I guess I have two main roles. One is as a reporter, which is great. I get to write print articles for the magazine and also online. And of course, with AFCEA, we don’t really spell out our name anymore, but it’s Armed Forces Communications and Electronics. So we’re always writing about that, that vein, specifically communications and electronics.
So I also cover, one of my beats is Air Force, Space Force. So I’m interested in those kinds of technologies that those military services are using. And then we also get to cover, AFCEA hosts many flagship conferences throughout the year, like West, TechNet Cyber, TechNet Augusta, that kind of thing. So in addition to, you know, writing Air Force [and] Space Force, you know, all of us reporters get to kind of cover that, that kind of material. And then on my director’s side, I help coordinate our online production, kind of our footprint of what our news is like there. And that includes outside authors from people who want to submit an article, what our reporters are writing, including myself. And then also we’re kind of delving into video news recording. And then I do the podcast, which is really fun. It’s why we’re here today. And trying to think what else…I also make sure I get to reflect the voices of those under 40. This is kind of a group of AFCEA that we call Emerging Leaders, and we really like to feature those voices. So for the magazine, I’m in charge of making sure we have a writer for the column, Disrupted by Design, written by somebody who’s under 40. So it’s great to kind of stand to be for their voices, and obviously for the podcast, either having a guest who’s under 40 or somebody that I think that that crowd should know about.
LP: That’s really cool.
KU: And let’s flip the script a little bit. It’s funny, when you asked me to be on the podcast, I usually get to ask people questions for a living. So the fact that you guys had to ask me stuff, I was like, “Oh no,” so I’m glad we got to, like, I get to ask you guys a couple of things. So can you tell us a little bit about your background and what are your roles at W2 [Communications]?
Joyson Cherian (JC): Sure, I’ll kick it off. And I understand completely being on this side of the aisle where we’re being asked questions, it is nerve wracking and terrifying. But we appreciate the opportunity, and thank you for speaking to us today. I’ve been in PR and marketing for nearly 20 years now. I started in college, where I studied media relations and public relations. After that, I did about a year of telecom sales. Was not my cup of tea, and I wanted to get back to something more creative and engaging for me from a storytelling perspective. And so I started at W2 Communications. Moved up the ladder accordingly over the years and, over the years, I’ve worked with a variety of technology clients from the public sector side, government contractors, to enterprise software to cybersecurity vendors, even HR technology. It really runs the gamut of the types of technology companies I’ve worked with over the years that are providing to enterprise corporations as well as government agencies and departments. And so these days, my primary focus is on companies in the government contracting space in the public sector, and helping elevating their brands and telling the stories that make them resonate to the government buyer.
LP: And yeah, similar to Joyson, I’ve been doing this not for as many years as Joyson but definitely for the last several. And I got my start similarly in college, where I got to work with a small boutique PR firm in the DC area. And that was really my introduction to public sector PR. I was fortunate enough to work with a lot of cybersecurity and technology clients more focused on the defense space. And it was just, it clicked, and I really enjoyed it. And so then I was fortunate enough to continue to do this when I joined W2 Communications where, you know, I’ve not only been able to continue to support these kind of clients in this space, but I’ve also been able to expand a bit and even work with some government agencies and satellite operators, both of which have been really rewarding and interesting opportunities. And similar, I would say, in terms of my role, it’s a lot of the media relations, so working with the clients to help really assert themselves as thought leaders in the emerging trends and topics within the industries that they serve and really just helping position them as such. And that’s through written or even earned forms of thought leadership, spoken, but also participating and speaking at conferences, awards and kind of those opportunities as well.
KU: It’s such a gift to us reporters to work with a PR firm like you guys. And for those who don’t understand that world, what does helping your clients look like? And then kind of that side of, you know, what is needed to shape communications, especially about technologies, in the industry we’re in?
LP: Yeah, I’m happy to kick us off with that. I’d say again, Joyson already hit the nail on the head with this earlier. But it is really about trying to raise brand awareness and visibility, because, as we know, it is a very, very busy marketplace. It’s very crowded, and so you really need to find those different ways to differentiate yourself and help you stand out, really highlighting the value of your technology. And so really it’s, you know, working with them to kind of synthesize some of that messaging and make it understandable for the commoner, the non-practitioner that may not really, you know, they’re not living, breathing, eating all that technology. And so it might get easy to get caught up in the jargon, but really kind of giving that center stage to hey, how is this going to help my problem? How is this going to help enable the warfighters that are protecting me? How is this going to help, you know, better secure the nation that we live in? [That] kind of approach.
JC: Yeah, to add to what Luca is saying, you know, at its core, day to day, we’re working with our clients’ marketing teams. And those marketing teams are ultimately trying to build connections for their businesses and their salespeople and their leadership. And part of building those connections is helping elevate and build trust accordingly. And what we predominantly do is work with our clients to figure out, what are the stories that they want to tell, how do they want to highlight the value of their solutions, their services and their technology to their ultimate buyer. We work with really, really smart people that have really compelling, interesting technology. And a lot of times, what happens is those people that create the technology can really have strong conversations to those individuals that are ultimately going to be using that technology. Where the gap comes, at times, is the decision maker, the one who approves the purchase. So how do we work with our clients to tell stories that highlight the value of their solutions and the value of their technology, so that the elevated decision maker has a keen understanding. And so there’s a really creative value of talking to our really smart technologists and building a story that bridges the gap of the need of the user and the financial decision maker. And so coming up with those storylines and coming up with those anecdotes and elevating our clients as experts and thought leaders is what we do on a day-to-day basis.
So let’s get back to you guys. What inspired each of you to start covering the defense industry?
KU: See how I wanted to pass it on? I guess I was just lucky, AFCEA had a job opening, and I was looking for a job at the time and I applied. And that was eight years ago. So kind of, here I am! But I never started in the military technology industry. I started, I was always a writer, loved writing, and kind of started in the energy industry, in the natural gas utility industry, electric industry, renewable energy industry, sometimes writing reports, like 200-page reports. But then started writing for like, a legal paper that was following regulations. But this industry is great because there’s…always something to write about. The scope is so broad. But definitely that first month I was here, the sheer number of acronyms, I just thought…
LP: It’s alphabet soup.
KU: “…Oh my gosh, it’s another language.”
GS: Well, I was interested in journalism from an early age. I was reading Newsweek and US News in middle school, not that I understood what I was reading, but I was really interested in it. And in fact, when I joined the Army, I wanted to go into journalism in the Army, but they told me that I would have to sign up now and wait two years for a slot to open up before I could actually go in. And I decided not to do that. Went into the Signal Corps instead. So spent seven years in the Signal Corps, and so it was just a natural fit for me to cover the defense industry.
KU: So you guys mentioned that you had a background in college in public relations. But are you two doing what you dreamed of doing when you were kids, kind of before college?
LP: So I’m happy to kick us off. I’d say, kind of, I mean, I would say that, you know, maybe this is a generalization, but I’d say a lot of guys my age kind of grew up watching all these different athletes, different sports teams. So naturally, you want to do something in the sports field. But, you know, I would say that by the time I was going to college, I started, you know, really thinking about, “Okay, what do I want to do?” And initially I gravitated towards cybersecurity and information systems. I just thought it was really cool. I’d always grown up with different technologies, and, you know, I just thought it would be a natural fit. So I studied a year of that in college, and while I really, really liked it, I just didn’t feel like I loved it. And, you know, they always say, do what you love and never work a day in your life. So I kind of switched around. I had taken some comms and marketing classes before, and I thought, “Okay, maybe I’d like that.” So I started taking those. I felt like I liked those a little bit more than the cybersecurity and information systems. So then it took one PR course, is what I would say. That was kind of my, you know, coming-to moment of, I took that and I knew, perfect, I was in love with it. And so, as I mentioned, I worked for that boutique PR firm, and I kind of feel like that was the full circle moment, because I had never thought, “Oh, let me do PR marketing for a tech company.” It just didn’t, you know, connect. So when I finally got the opportunity to work with those kinds of companies, it felt like it was this holistic moment of, I got to do something that I really love for an industry that I really enjoyed and I really appreciate it. And so, then getting to talk about it, how it benefits the warfighters just really be the cherry on top. You know, I have many people in my current family, but also my future family, that are service members. So it’s a nice kind of rewarding feeling of you’re getting to see how does this benefit them.
JC: To Luca’s point earlier, I hate to break news here, but unfortunately, I’m not a six-foot-six starting point guard for the Washington Wizards. So that dream didn’t come true, but I would say, you know, there’s some components of being a point guard that work well in the team environment. In the work that we do, you’re always setting up others for success. And I kind of gravitated towards the role and responsibility of being behind the scenes, helping create the story. And I think when I was younger, and even now, writing is such a valuable component of what we do, from a day-to-day perspective. But a part of that is also just being creative and the unique storytelling side of things. And so finding a career that allows you to execute on those abilities and bring complicated stories and complicated technologies to the forefront and relatable to a broader audience. I think that’s pretty exciting. That’s the type of thing that really drives our interest and energizes us on a day-to-day basis.
LP: And so, I’d be curious to hear because you both mentioned that you are in the newsrooms and that you are keeping [abreast] of all the different emerging trends, topics, etc. Are there any that have really been piquing your interest the most as of late? And with fiscal year 26 coming up, are there any topics that you’re hoping to cover more or anything you’re really keeping an eye on?
GS: Well, obviously, artificial intelligence and cyber and the convergence of those two. Military modernization and the preparation for 2027 competition with China is always big. And we just love all things C5ISR [Command, Control, Communications, Computers, Cyber, Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance], and sometimes things that don’t fit neatly under that C5ISR umbrella, but welcome to technology!
KU: And we’re working right now on our robots issue, which we’ve done a couple years ago, and then a couple years before that. And that, I think, is my absolute favorite. But definitely tracking quantum, kind of been reporting on that off and on for a couple of years. But at first, it was quantum computing, learning what a qubit is. And now, it’s really kind of going into, you know, quantum clocks and timing for PNT – positioning, navigation and timing. Or it’s looking at the quantum network, not just the computer, but the network, the software that’s involved, and controlling the network compilers, that kind of thing. I interviewed a gentleman from a company called Qoro Quantum, and he had come from Cisco, like a traditional IT background. And I thought, “Oh, that’s fascinating.” But they’re trying to find new ways of, you know, how you control a quantum network with the hardware and software. So trying to learn about that. But that definitely makes my brain hurt when I have to study quantum, for sure.
And then kind of related to what George said about C5ISR, kind of looking at the modernization of command and control technologies with that AI and huge data confluence. I know the Air Force itself is looking at how to modernize C2 and looking at decision tools to help decision makers in command and control and kind of looking at what the human is going to be doing in that loop, and what the automated, you know, computer will be doing, and kind of divvying that out. And I think that’s kind of fascinating.
GS: And you guys have a lot of clients in this space, in the defense and national security technology arena. So what are some technologies or capabilities that you see that you think will be disruptive and why?
LP: So I would just say that a lot of the companies that we work with are disruptive for different reasons. Because, you know, the way we kind of look at it is that with disruptive, it’s kind of, it could be interpreted some ways of, you know, it’s against the norm. It’s not maybe the best at times with the word disruptive. But I really think that with the clients that we serve, that it is for the better. And it is really just going against the norm for that. We’re fortunate enough to work with a lot of clients that are focused on trying to help enable the warfighter again. They’re finding different ways to provide different…trying to find, like, again, these ways that it is going to change. So for the longest time, you have different people that are trying to find new ways to get connectivity in the battlefield. So, we work with a couple of satellite operators that, you know, they are helping give that connectivity in these maybe more disparate locations that it might not be as feasible, both from civilian and military standpoint. But the other point they have to look at is warfighters, they might not always be able to be stationary, because they’re always trying to avoid the threats. So, we also have that they’re trying to give that information on the move. So again, I think it is really interesting that these clients, they’re breaking the norms. They are being disruptive in that regard, but they’re helping modernize the mission. They’re trying to move everything forward, giving that more seamless connectivity in that moment.
JC: What’s really interesting is, over the last 15 years, we’ve just been through this life cycle of rapid technology development and design and delivery that’s unlike anything that we’ve seen before. So it’s, on one hand, it’s really cool to be a part of a conversation now that’s almost enabling science fiction. Things that you imagined are starting to come to fruition, or they’re in the roadmap to come to fruition. And so working with technology companies that are building the infrastructure and the foundation to enable that, I think is a really compelling aspect to it. And it’s also wild, because I can name a technology today that I think is really compelling and interesting. And if someone sees this episode six months from now, they’re gonna say that is outdated. And so it’s so interesting to watch that evolution happen and be a part of it. I think the types of technologies that really gravitate our interest is things that are clearly affecting and helping the end user in the military, whether there’s software solutions or technologies that are providing information and data to the warfighter in a much more efficient manner and faster manner to help them make more informed decisions. That is compelling and really interesting and helps them on a day-to-day basis, and that touches on all the components that we talked about in the past – mobility, cloud, big data, AI. And so having these technologies come to fruition, it’s very fascinating to watch. But also on the citizen side of things, some of our, well, there’s a client that we have that has developed technology for TSA to help the TSA security process go much more efficiently and faster. And so watching those technologies come to fruition and see immediate results and benefits to everyday citizens. Those are the types of technologies that are really compelling and catch our attention that we’re really excited about supporting.
KU: What kinds of clients do you like to work with and, kind of, the business areas that are most interesting to you all?
JC: You know what, I don’t know that there’s a singular business area that I can narrow it down to, because it evolves so quickly. I think the type of clients that we like to work with are ones that want to stay informed, that want to stay ahead of the game, and are always thinking ahead, and want to be, probably most importantly, collaborative. I think we pride ourselves on coming to the conversation with unique storylines and conversation points that we think could resonate in the broader market. But also those ideas are based on articles you guys write, the articles the industry is writing, the chatter that we’re seeing taking place online, and the publications that we engage with, and so for them to treat us like consultants that are working to help tell their story more effectively, working to position them as thought leaders. That sort of mentality is what we’re looking for, and what we see being very successful amongst our clients. And the ability to pivot. You know, every day is a new technology, a new capability. But they’re on the front lines, having these conversations with the military and other agencies that illustrate what their interests are. So they can come to us with a storyline and the conversations that they’re having. We can build out trends and articles and pieces that resonate not just with the industry but with their buyers as well.
LP: Yeah, I would really just like to, you know, hammer home on that, just because, yeah, we are very fortunate enough that we get to work with a lot of clients that have these really cool stories and really cool technologies to talk about. So, yeah, it’s really just trying to find those clients that we can help elevate their brand, help elevate their thought leadership and their position to, you know, really stay committed to helping not only the warfighter, but the everyday citizen as well. I’ll say, you know, one of the clients I got to work with many years ago that I thought was a really cool one was they made kind of this pressure pad that you would stand on, and it was meant for helping support the warfighter in their preparation for any of your Army combat fitness test or anything of this sort. And so you would stand on this pad, and it would kind of analyze you from toe to skull, and it would tell you, hey, you have a 97% fully strengthened knee, or your left one might be 80%. So in order to adjust this, you need to, you know, change your workout, maybe add five more pounds on the left side versus this. You can do that for a push up stance, it would tell you in your arms and your shoulders, stuff like that. And so that was just one of the examples like we were able to, you know, that one stands out to me because I grew up being an athlete. And so I wish I would have had something like that, maybe to get out of my own way. Granted, I don’t think a dumb teenager would listen to it. Maybe not, but, yeah, I just think that, you know, again, that was something that really drew me into the defense side of things. But it’s really expanded sense of being able to work with clients that not only are helping warfighter, but they’re helping general government. And then, you know, ultimately, when you help out both those, you’re helping out the everyday, the civilians. You’re helping out the consumers, like Joyson mentioned with the TSA example, that, okay, cool, now you’re helping the everyday person that [says], “I don’t want to stand in line for 10 hours. Okay, I can get through in half the time, or whatever the percentage is.”
JC: As someone who has definitely sent you hundreds of emails over the years, I’m sure you get tons of pitches on a daily basis. What to you makes a good resource? What is the type of person that’s a great resource in your eyes? And does this vary at all for “Disruptive by Design?”
KU: Oh, sure, yeah. I guess, like in an ideal world, the pitch that I’d love to receive has not only the technology and all about it, but then pairs it with an end user, you know, such as if it’s a military technology, the military service that could be using it or is using it. So you kind of have a more in-depth view. Or it could be the technology with academia. I was on the call recently with my colleague, Nuray Taylor, and we’re writing a story about direct-to-device, satellite communication technology to a mobile device like a cell phone or a tablet, kind of as a secondary alternative communications link to cellular connectivity. And so we’re kind of learning all about this great new technology. So we’re talking to Texas A&M, but then we had the opportunity to also speak with Qualcomm out of San Diego, that’s making some of the chips and other hardware that’s going to go into this D2D technology. So when it’s paired with maybe a researcher, end user, you know someone outside of the technology whether it’s academia or military would be amazing.
GS: Yeah, to pick up on part of Kim’s answer, we see SIGNAL Magazine as a news source for solutions. So we’re looking for people who can identify a challenge or technology gap and then provide a solution without being self-promotional. Some years ago, I remember getting an email from someone from Northrop Grumman who said we didn’t know we needed this technology until we read about it in SIGNAL Magazine. And then last year, I wrote about MilliMobile, a tiny little robot, and I got an email from somebody in the Pentagon who said, “Can you connect me with these researchers? Because we have a warfighter need, and we think this might be a solution.” And so then I did connect them via email, and I was able to kind of watch as they conversed in email, in a non-classified setting of course, how they can modify that technology to meet the warfighter’s needs. And so that’s really what we look for. We look for news, information, ideas, innovations that are going to help the military and national security community accomplish the mission.
KU: And for “Disrupted by Design” specifically, this is the column in the print magazine. It’s a 650-word column. And so for there, it’s kind of different. What we’re looking for there, we’re just looking for the imagination or the thought leadership of somebody under 40, to share their unique perspective of the world from their view. And so just trying to be a presence to, you know, accept their voice. So for that, it just is more about their perspective, or what they’re trying to teach, or their point of view. And that could be on any technology, or even on leadership, or something funny. So that’s a little different.
LP: That’s cool, though.
KU: Absolutely. And how about you? You are kind of a client whisperer, both of you. But what are some common tips you give to clients, and specifically about writing articles or getting thought leadership pieces published?
LP: I’m happy to kick it off., You know, it really touches on what I was addressing at the top of the episode. You know, we really want our clients to answer those burning questions that they’re hearing from prospects or even current clients. Because it’s kind of, you know, what are you not hearing in the news that you’re having these discussions about that people should know about, because people don’t know what they don’t know. So we really advise on trying to provide answers to those questions. And it kind of even ties to, George, your point of, you know, we don’t want to be promotional [in] that sense, we’re trying to help provide direct solutions. So that way, yeah, you know, ideally down the line, if in a perfect world, they show themselves as a knowledgeable thought leader on a potential pain point for the Army or whoever it is. And they know, “Okay, they know what they’re talking about. I can trust them. They are experts in this arena, and I need to go talk to them.” It’s kind of how we approach it, because you also want to find ways to cut through the noise. You don’t want to be, you know, just touting everything that everyone knows already in the news. You want to bring up the new topic. What is something forward looking that isn’t there yet?
JC: The way that I put it sometimes is, it’s the difference between writing a book report and a book review. You know, a book report is, you’re just collecting the information and giving a recap of it, and that’s a mistake that some people make a lot at times. They want to give an overview of, here’s what others have said; here’s the other research that others have done. But they don’t include their opinion on it. A review gives the additional analysis based on your experience, based on your understanding of what’s happening. And so look at it from a book review perspective, add your perspective, add your knowledge, add your insights based on the experience that you have. And that’s what leads to that differentiating thought leadership, and ultimately, to my point a little bit earlier, building that trust.
You know, George, you mentioned a moment ago about the military reaching out to you to be connected to people. They’re asking for these connections there because they’re in a trusted publication. It’s not a sales pitch, per se. It’s a knowledgeable person talking about an issue that’s emerging that clearly affects the military. And so by positioning yourself in a way that illustrates you understand the challenges but also you understand the solutions, you’re setting yourself apart. And when you write those articles, you have to think about the components that are individualized to you, that you can set yourself apart in these pieces so you will become trusted.
GS: One of the biggest reasons we reject articles when people submit them is that they don’t tell us anything new. That’s not thought leadership. If I’ve heard it 1,000 times at various conferences, AFCEA conferences or whatever, that’s not thought leadership. So they, like you guys said, they really need to differentiate themselves with their own experience and their own insights and innovations.
JC: What’s fascinating is a lot of times when we have these early stage conversations, it’s a little bit of us just like pulling the thread. We learn information. They start talking, they start getting…our experts start getting a little more comfortable, and then out of nowhere, a fascinating data point or a fascinating anecdote comes to fruition. And we’ve gotten good at pulling that information out of them. But once they realize where the story is, a light bulb goes off and they’re willing to be a lot more engaging. And sometimes they don’t realize what’s interesting until they have others sort of validate it for them. You know, a lot of our experts are in the weeds and doing this on a day-to-day basis, so it’s sometimes difficult to get outside of that. So when we come in blank slate and ask certain questions and lead the conversation in different ways that they’re used to, you get insights that are really powerful, and then set apart.
KU: I hope your clients are brave like that, and realize, yeah, they have a unique perspective to offer. Yeah, because that is what we’re looking for. We’re looking at an outside author piece today. And like George said, this one happened to be something that, you know, there was nothing new there. We had heard that before. But if they added kind of, “Oh, and this is what I know, it makes it unique and and more valuable, I guess.”
JC: 100%.
LP: And I’ll kick it over to you in a minute. I would say that part of that is really helping provide that guidance of really discerning what is interesting and what might not be as interesting. And that comes from just our conversations with folks like you that we get to hear firsthand from you in terms of what your interests are, but also just staying abreast of the different topics and trends in the news. And the reason why I want to kick it to you is because I know you have a really interesting anecdote from years ago where one of our clients didn’t think this certain piece of research was super interesting until they started explaining it. And I’ll let you do it justice.
JC: Yeah, no. Years ago, we had a client doing some cybersecurity research, and they were planning to publish research that they didn’t think was particularly compelling. I remember looking at it and what was really interesting about it is the malware within that they found was using classic English literature in some of the code. And I saw it like, this is incredibly fascinating. And they didn’t think it was. And we said, you know, allow us to pitch it out, and it got tons of media interest because, by including classic English literature, that’s something that you don’t expect from hackers. And it’s something that resonates with more broader public audiences. And so we were able to get that in wider publications and business level publications, because there’s a connection point that is there by illustrating English literature, by building English literature that humanizes the story for a broader audience. So it’s really great to have those discussions and find that second layer accordingly.
LP: Well, George, Kim, it has been great conversation thus far. Something that we really like to do with our guests, to kind of close out the episode, is, you know, we like to ask these fun kind of get-to-know-you questions outside of the newsroom or outside the studio. So George, I’ll start with you. What is one of your most frequently watched movies that no matter what you’re doing, you might stop with whatever you’re doing just to go watch it.
GS: I would dearly love to say, “Braveheart” because it is my favorite of all time, but it’s also a little too long just to sit down. So I would say any of the Jason Bourne movies. And a close second for me, although I might have to turn in my man card for saying this, would be “Notting Hill.”
KU: And I guess for me, I kind of echoing Jason Bourne, but I love “The Hunt for Red October.” Like, if that’s on, even though I know, like every line by heart, I’ll always watch that. It’s so good.
JC: You know, as we have these get-to-know-you questions, people will obviously tell us about what they like. But when we ask them about things they don’t like and things they actively hate, they are enthusiastic. And so we do have a couple of those questions, and I’ll start with mine first. What dish, food or food ingredient do you hate? Or do not understand the appeal of.
KU: So I guess I grew up in like a foodie house, like my mom worked at a French restaurant and did cooking classes, and so I guess I’ve been a foodie for a long time, and now my kids are kind of like that. But my son really pushes it to the edge where we’re like, okay, we’re trying steak tartare and escargot or even, like, the protein that’s made out of, like, bugs, you know, like high protein. So I feel like, with them, like I have to at least try things. But, you know, it’s kind of rough. So I would say anything like that, that’s kind of, I don’t know, outside the ordinary.
GS: Well, you said “ingredient.” So for me, it would be cilantro. Cannot stand cilantro. There’s nothing else even close.
LP: So you have the soap gene that it tastes like that, or just…?
GS: I would rather wash my mouth than taste cilantro.
JC: George, we can bond on that. I have the same gene. I’ve been avoiding cilantro for years. I completely understand.
KU: Yeah, there’s no in between. You either love cilantro or you hate it. I’ve never met anybody that’s like, “Oh yeah, it’s okay.”
LP: Yeah. No one’s take it or leave it. It’s, yeah, you definitely have an opinion on it.
JC: It’s surprising how many people get upset at us for not liking it when it’s not our choice.
I’ll ask one more. If you never had to hear this song again, you would be extremely happy. What song is that, George?
GS: For me, it would be “Toto” and “Africa.” Not that it’s a terrible song. It’s a great song. It’s catchy. It’s, you know, one of those earworm kinds of songs. But I just heard it so much on the radio that I had to stop listening to radio and switch over to Pandora. I cannot stand to hear it anymore.
JC: Fair enough. Kim?
KU: I don’t know if there’s any one song I kind of weird, like, I like all genres of music, like from the 1930s like to now. But I guess maybe it would be like, you know, maybe rap music that’s got a lot of swear words in it, that has a lot of, you know, words against women, or, you know, into violence, that kind of thing. I would maybe leave that.
LP: Definitely makes sense.
Well, George and Kim, thank you both so much for your time today. If any of our listeners wanted to reach out to learn more about the work that you both are doing at SIGNAL, what would be the best ways for them to get in touch with you?
GS: Probably via email: GSeffers@fca.org.
KU: and Kunderwood@afcea.org. and then you can also look on our website, afcea.org, and look under SIGNAL Media. We have a writer’s guide there. We have our editorial calendar, that kind of thing. So, yeah.
LP: Perfect. Well, thank you, everyone who tuned into this special episode. And thank you, George and Kim, for helping us go “Gov & Beyond.”
Outro: Thank you for joining us on today’s episode of Gov & Beyond to learn more about our podcast and hear all of our episodes, please visit us at w2comm.com/govandbeyond, and make sure to follow us on LinkedIn and Twitter at govandbeyond. You can also subscribe anywhere podcasts are found.