This month’s episode of “Gov & Beyond” may seem like a change of pace from previous ones. For one thing, the interviewee, Karlton Johnson, chief executive officer and chairman of the Board of Governors at the National Space Society (NSS), is not a journalist and does not work for a media company. But Johnson and his organization operate in much the same space as government tech-focused media outlets in terms of their goal to share information related to government missions.
In this interview, hosts Luca Pagni and Joyson Cherian talk with Johnson about his professional background, the NSS mission and goals, the evolution of the space industry and some of the very unique events NSS sponsors. You’ll also hear a rather touching story about Johnson’s brush with Capt. Kirk himself, William Shatner.
A retired U.S. Air Force colonel, Johnson told Luca and Joyson that he has worked across many aspects of the military and defense, including national security, space operations, cybersecurity and strategy. Perhaps due to this broad range of experience and his sense of service to his country, he approaches his present job with a focus on the big picture of how space activity can remain “sustainable, responsible and in line with social interests.”
Making Capt. Kirk Cry
A sense of Johnson’s drive to serve a purpose greater than himself runs through this interview. He describes NSS as a nonprofit, non-partisan organization focused on education, advocacy and public dialogue around space “in a way that’s informed, responsible and inclusive.” That extends beyond technology into areas of policy, economics and public engagement. “The NSS exists to convene conversations, to elevate understanding and to provide a space, no pun intended, where long term issues can be discussed seriously, and that’s outside of short term programs and contact pressures,” Johnson said.
To that end, NSS sponsors events where interested parties can get together to exchange ideas and hear experts speak. Johnson calls the organization’s annual International Space Development Conference (ISDC) “one of the coolest events you could ever go to.” Perhaps the longest running space conference in the world, the ISDC began largely as a gathering of space aficionados but has grown into a forum that combines technical discussions, policy analysis, industry engagement and international perspectives.
Johnson recounted how William Shatner attended the conference a few years ago and regaled attendees with stories about his experience as an actor playing a commander of a starship and then what happened years later when he was a passenger on a rocket that actually went into space. Listen to the podcast to hear about how Johnson nearly brought Shatner to tears when he honored the actor with the organization’s Excellence Award.
Keeping an Open Mind
If you’re a regular “Gov & Beyond” listener, you know that Luca and Joyson always end the podcast with a few fun questions asking their subjects about the food, movies and songs they love…and those that they hate. In previous episodes, we’ve heard some amusing answers from podcasts guests but none as philosophical as Johnson’s.
When asked about a food he absolutely hates, Johnson discussed how he never writes off any food (or music) without giving it proper consideration. So when it comes to trying a new food, “What I will say is, I’ll try it three times to see if it’s something I want to try [for] a fourth. And at least I can say in my life, hey, I tried that. Did it three times, and then that kills the ongoing question of, do you like it or not?”
He said this philosophy can apply to all of the prejudices and differences that so often divide people. “I think it starts with the simple things. If you’re willing to hate food, then you’re willing to hate something else. But if you take a moment to go, ‘Yeah, you know, I may not necessarily eat it all the time, but it has its characteristics,’…there you go.”
Listen to the podcast below or read the transcript for all the details.
Timestamps
0:39 – Karlton’s Journey from the Air Force to NSS
4:01 – National Space Society’s Mission
8:58 – The evolution of public and private space collaboration
14:58 – NSS Events – International Space Development Conference and monthly forums
27:18 – Apollo 13 is in his top 10 movies of all time
29:12 – Karlton’s three strikes rule with food
31:19 – He has yet to find a song he dislikes
Transcript
Intro: Welcome to Gov & Beyond. I’m your host. Luca Pagni, here with my cohost Joyson Cherian. This podcast features conversations with the newsmakers and influencers at the center of today’s public sector news cycles from our studio at W2 Communications, let’s go Gov & Beyond.
Luca Pagni (LP): Welcome everyone to “Gov & Beyond.” I’m your host Luca Pagni here with my co-host, Joyson Cherian. We’re excited to be joined today by Karlton Johnson, retired Air Force colonel who serves as a chief executive officer and chairman of the Board of Governors at the National Space Society. Karlton, welcome to the show!
Karlton Johnson (KJ): Yeah, thank you guys. I’m happy to be here.
LP: Glad to have you. Karlton, we’d love to start by learning more about your background and role at the National Space Society. Can you tell us a little bit more about yourself and your career?
KJ: Yeah, absolutely. I’ll kind of start back in the day, if you don’t mind. So I started in the United States Air Force. I am a retired U.S. Air Force colonel, and over the course of my career, I had the opportunity to work across many, many aspects of the military and defense, if you will, from national security, space operations, cyber and strategy. And often, there was a lot of intersection in that time between government, industry and a lot of the international partners that we worked with. So today, after those years – and I served 26 and a half plus four if you look at my ROTC time, so about 30 – I retired but didn’t expire in 2014. And after working in the Fortune 500 space for a bit, I went back and reignited a company that I’d started many years ago. The short version about that is, I was this close, this close to popping smoke, as we like to say in the military when I was a captain, and I had everything lined up, even had a book deal lined up. And let’s just say, somebody popped up out of the ground and said, “We want to try to take the freedom away from your family and friends. And I couldn’t let that happen. So I chose duty, honor and country and recognize that anything else I wanted to do would be there at the end, which is what I did.
So now I serve as the chief executive officer and chairman of the Board of Governors for the National Space Society. In that particular role, my focus is on stewardship. I help guide the organization’s strategic direction, ensure that we remain credible and non-partisan, and make sure that our work contributes meaningfully to long term thinking about space development. At this point in my career, I’m less focused on, you know, executing individual programs, for example, like I did back in the day, and more about shaping the conditions under which space activity can remain sustainable, responsible and in line with social interests. In addition to being on the National Space Society, my own company, and let me, let me be clear, National Space Society is the 501 c3, nonprofit, that is not my company. This company I’m a part of, that I lead, that I’ve elected to. My company is the DeLaine Strategy Group. And that company focuses on three tiers: C-suite advisory, so working directly with CEOs and C-suite leaders to improve their leadership capabilities, but also strategy development. I focus on cyber risk and space development, which kind of segues into the National Space Society.
Joyson Cherian (JC): Now we’d love to learn more about the National Space Society. Obviously, over the last few years, there’s been a lot of development in the space sector, as well as investment in space, with many organizations and government agencies taking a greater emphasis on it. Could you tell us a little bit more about the National Space Society, its members, mission and overall objectives, as well as the types of individuals and organizations that typically partner with NSS?
KJ: Absolutely. And if you hear the excitement in my voice, it’s because this is really an exciting time. Space has always been cool. Now, for whatever reason, it’s cooler. And you know, the National Space Society, from my perspective, sits at the nexus of all this cool stuff that’s happening. As I mentioned before, it’s a nonprofit 501(c)(3) non-partisan organization. The focus is on education, advocacy and public dialogue around space. And when I say education, it’s not just educating youth. It’s educating adults in the various sectors they live, whether it be Congress, individuals, business owners, you name it. The overall mission of the organization is to advance human future in space in a way that’s informed, responsible and inclusive. The membership is really diverse. It includes engineers, scientists, military, civil servants, policy, professionals, professionals, educators, students and industry leaders across the board. So some of the members from my background and my experience are deeply technical. Others are focused on the policy, economics and public engagement side. So it’s like I said, it’s pretty diverse. We also work with a range of partners across industry, academia and government, and those relationships are collaborative rather than transactional. The NSS exists to convene conversations, to elevate understanding and to provide a space, no pun intended, where long term issues can be discussed seriously, and that’s outside of short term programs and contact pressures.
JC: That’s really interesting, because it sounds like, you know, it’s the right organization at this era where we’re trying to bridge the theoretical of what’s the opportunities in space, with the reality and the new technologies that are being launched into space and enabling that sort of next generation of space development and exploration. Is that fair to say?
KJ: Absolutely, absolutely right on target. And you know, we’ll talk more about this, I’m sure, with the questions you have. But the thing I’ll bring out, and this is no hit on any of the entities I’ll bring up – when you look at what’s happening with SpaceX, Blue Origin, which I’m very proud of, and I’m happy to see what they’re doing, a lot of that is focused on launch. So if you use this analogy, back in the day, when we had the original U.S. colonies and people started going out west, you had mom, pa, covered wagon going out in the middle of nowhere, just hoping for the best. They got to a point where either they just couldn’t go any further, or somebody in the caravan said, “Hey, I’m done. We’re going to plant stakes here.” That became a campsite. That campsite, maybe some other people showed up on that same trail, that kind of became a little community. And then all of a sudden this thing called a railroad showed up. And once the railroad showed up, now you could start going from a small gathering to an actual community, maybe a city. And that’s because you’re getting resources and everything else. So look at SpaceX, Blue Origin and those types of entities as the railroad and possibly the train. We talk about all the other stuff to include that train, and that’s where NSS comes in. And there are other organizations like Planetary [Society] and Mars Society, Explore Mars. And again, they’re all great. Each one of them have their specific focus on a surface or an entity. But we’re looking at encompassing space writ large and all the things that do happen in there. So I kind of consider us the umbrella for all conversations with space.
LP: Karlton, you mentioned a handful of you know different commercial space providers and just members of the commercial space industry. As someone who’s spent many years working in and with the government, how have you seen this partnership between commercial space and the government evolve?
KJ: You know, that’s a really good question, And I think that gets to the heart of both the challenges and opportunities that exist today. In my estimation, over time, the relationship between government and commercial space sector has really changed in fundamental ways. Early on, space activity was largely government directed, and industry was supporting narrowly defined programs, very specific programs. I believe that that’s kind of flipped to today. The landscape is much broader. Commercial companies are developing capabilities at scale, and that is significant. And government is increasingly acting as an anchor with customers, but also as a regulator, as a partner, rather than a sole driver. So that shift has increased, again, in my estimation, innovation, which is key. It’s increased resilience, but it’s also introduced new policy and governance challenges. Government still plays a critical role in safety, for example, national security, international obligations, but what’s different now is that those responsibilities exist within a more complex and interconnected space ecosystem. So the short version is that looks like it’s flipped. And I think both sides, because it’s flipped so fast, have got to have the right conversations of what success looks like at the end of the day, and particularly when it comes to entities like NASA. If you look at the context I talked about, NASA’s not doing or not going to do what it used to do. So something’s got to calibrate for the new reality. And it all starts with people going, a) I agree that that’s new reality that’s happened. And b) if I agree with that, I’m open to the idea of change. Critical point.
LP: And you know, because you already started touching on it, of, you know, it’s that mentality shift, it’s the flipping of industry kind of leading. There are reports out there that estimate that the global space economy is projected to be worth nearly $2 trillion by 2035. What do you foresee as the biggest drivers of this in the near term? But then also, as we get closer to 2035, what do you think might be driving it by then?
KJ: So, that’s a great question. I’m not going to stick my hat on the 2 trillion, particularly, just because the number keeps changing. And one of the things that I have looked at with different organizations is, how do we codify that amount? Because, again, when you look at the entire ecosystem as I talked about, there’s a lot of things that need to happen within the space ecosystem to move us forward. So that 2 trillion, I kind of question exactly what that number is and how we came to it.
But let’s put that aside for a second, getting back to the specific question about drivers in the space economy. And I look at this towards 2035, that’s kind of a target that we’ve been looking at in the nearer term, growth in the space economies is being driven today by satellite communications, earth observation, launch services, as I mentioned earlier, and the integration of what I call space-derived data and everyday decision making. You know, as an example, when you pick up your iPhone and you make a phone call, most people don’t realize that there’s some space-related capability behind that. They just accept it, because it’s ubiquitous like water or air. But you take that away and all of a sudden, oh my gosh. So you know, when you look at the integration of these capabilities, we’re using it every day, and it’s getting more pervasive. And these areas, my opinion, where demand already exists, is going to continue to expand, at least in the near future. But looking out further and again, we’ll just pin the tail on a donkey on 2035, the drivers, in my opinion, are going to become more structural. For example, in space services such as refueling and assembly, sustained activity and cislunar space, this and deeper integration between space infrastructures and terrestrial economies are going to become more relevant. I think the overall value of the space economy is going to really depend less on individual missions and more on how space capabilities become embedded in global economy systems and global supply chains and global security architectures. That’s where the money is going to be.
JC: NSS hosts an annual conference call. The International Space Development Conference. Could you tell us a little bit more about this event?
KJ: Oh, I gotta tell you this. It’s one of the coolest events you could ever go to. And I got a story I want to share with you towards when I just answer this question. But yes, the NSS hosts what we call ISDC – International Space Development Conference. It’s held every year, and it’s been held annually for I think, 30 to 40 years. It’s the longest running, or at least one of the longest running space conferences in the world. And over that time, the conference has evolved alongside the space economy itself. You know, what began largely as a visionary gathering of people who are just interested in space. It’s grown from that into a forum that combines technical discussions, policy analysis, industry engagement and international perspectives. Today ISDC brings together students, professionals, executives, policymakers, global participants. And the goal that we have is to create meaningful dialogue across generations and disciplines, both grounded in aspirational ideas and practical realities. We, through ISDC, offer scholarships for students. Students come and participate in debates regarding the evolution of space, and we have keynote speakers that people normally wouldn’t get to see. We had Scott Pace at one point in time, who ran the Space Council.
And this one I got to share with you, because for me, it’s pretty cool. I feel very happy about this. So two ISDCs ago, we gave an award. We gave a lot of awards to people who have excelled in space or helped to advocate for space. And William Shatner, aka Captain Kirk, we gave him an award, an Excellence Award. He decided he was going to show up, and the understanding we had was that he was only going to come in, receive the award and leave because, you know, had a schedule. We’re okay with that. So came in, I was the emcee and got to introduce him. He came in. Gave him the award. And as people like him are wont to do, he did it his way. And he decided that he wanted to share with us the experience he had going up on Blue Origin. So what was supposed to be a five-minute deal turned into about an hour 15 minute speech, which was amazing. I mean, just listening to him talk about the observer effect and everything else that was just, it was touchdown. And so once he completed and got the standing ovation, I took the liberty of taking my own way action. And I said, Mr. Shatner, I know that you do not necessarily consider yourself Captain Kirk, and I get that, and I appreciate that, because you’ve done some other things, like TJ Hooker and everything else. That said, I want you to know that the characters that you brought forth in Captain Kirk, it’s inspired people to become like you, you know, pushing the edge and everything. And I’m one of those guys. I became a colonel in the United States Air Force, and then working in space stuff because of Star Trek. So I want to thank you for that. And I noticed that in your Captain Kirk persona, yeah, you saved the universe multiple times. Appreciate that. I noticed that Starfleet demoted you from Admiral back to captain. Now if you’d have been an Air Force guy, we would promoted you to four stars. So what I’m going to do today is, I’m going to give you the colonel rank that I wore in Iraq. And I’m going to unofficially officially, dub you a colonel in United States Air Force, you know, kind of, you know, just between us and I want you to wear these proudly. That gentleman had a look at his eye like a tear to everything else. He stood there proudly, let me pin it on, saluted me, and then he talked for another 10 minutes, and then he left. And I said to myself, we’re but ISDC can you see these kind of things? And it was an amazing moment. But from a real world perspective, people like to hear from a character who played a person, who played a character in space, actually went up in space, talked about the observer effect and why it’s important for, in his words, every politician to go up and and see the planet, to see how fragile it is, and see that there are truly no borderlines other than the ones we make. You know, he brought that message down, and then everybody left going, not only did we hear a cool message, but we got to meet Captain Kirk. It was awesome. So ISDC is, my opinion, one of the most remarkable forums on the planet for this.
JC: What an incredible story to be able to share. You know, one of the things that when we often bring up conferences and events is the ability to connect with people in real life and really build a connection in a way that you can’t virtually, and to have an event like that where not only are people hearing from an esteemed actor that they that they may have seen growing up, that inspired them, but also seeing this connection being made that that sounds like a really incredible moment to have.
KJ: And by the way, we have our ISDC coming up for this year. I’ll give you the website at the end, but it’s, I believe it’s in June, and this one is going to be in Washington, DC. So if the listeners are interested, I’ll make sure you have the information and they can attend. And you’ll see all the great people that are coming this year as well.
JC: Fantastic. We know that NSS also hosts a variety of other events, including its monthly forums. Who attends these events and what are some of the topics that you cover during these monthly meetings?
KJ: Yeah. So, in addition to ISCC, NSS holds regular space forms each year. These are designed to maintain continuity and discussions rather than limiting engagement to a single annual event. ISCC happens once a year, but conversations continue throughout the year. So we want to have those. Attendees to these include working professionals, students, researchers, again, policy analysts. It really depends, because the topics vary based on current development and range from space policy to governance, commercial trends, sustainability, national security considerations. The intent overall is to provide that as accessible and timely, emphasis on timely, conversations that reflect what’s actually happening in the speech domain. And the key thing I’d like people to kind of take away is, you know, there are certain words that NSS uses that I’m not necessarily a fan of. I’ll be perfectly clear and honest about that, because I’ll always tell you what I think, what I know, what I believe, what I recommend. To that end, we talk about being a grassroots entity, and that’s because it did start from the ground up, people just getting together, interested in space. But again, I think we’ve evolved beyond that now, and I think that the power behind NSS is, we are the entity that helps the everyday person understand what is a) happening in space, b) why it matters, and c) most importantly, what’s in it for them. You know, from that conversation, you can go to other conferences and get really technical stuff and everything, and that’s great. I go for it. But if you want to come and go, I’m a farmer in Iowa, future home of James T. Kirk, by the way, if you ever go out there, there’s actually a town that is set up for that. I’ve been there. It’s cool. If I’m a farmer, I want to just understand what this space stuff is about and why it matters to me, and how can it help me do my job better, you want to come to NSS. We’re the people. We’re the EF Hutton for space.
JC: Amazing. You know, it’s funny, we often, in our line of work, Luca and I, when we talk to clients, we often talk about the notion of humanizing deep technical issues to a broader audience. And it’s really great to hear an organization like NSS doing that for space, which can be overwhelming to a lot of people and very complicated. And sometimes it is rocket science, but other times it’s just a way to figure out how to make that rocket science relatable to broader audiences.
KJ: Absolutely. And, you know, I laugh when I hear that, because, on one end, space is rocket science. It’s getting out there and everything else. But when you look at how humanity has evolved on the planet, when you sailed the seas, when you went out west and east and did stuff, that was science too, science fiction, if you will, before we did it. So maybe a better way to look at space is not that it’s just rocket science, because it’s not just for technical people. And it’s definitely not just for people who have a lot of money. Space is space. It’s available for all. And the key is going to be, how do we go out there and survive in it, which is critical, because space is a hostile environment. But how do we go out into space and continue humanity in a way where we leave all the nonsense behind and go out and do it better and leave it better than we found it. That’s really, I think, the key moving forward.
And you know, with the challenges that we have on the planet today, fossil fuels and so forth, we have to figure out alternative solutions. And let me throw this out while I’m thinking about it. Within the NSS, we talk about the development of space, as I discussed earlier, space resource utilization – so things like space, solar power or alternative energy sources. We look at planetary defense, believe it or not. And in case you didn’t know, in Washington, DC, at least there used to be – I think it’s still there – there’s an office dedicated to planetary defense. I have their patch. It’s the coolest patch ever. And that’s looking at near earth objects that can kill us and what do we do about it. And then we also look at what it’s called space settlement, which is the actual taming of space in a way where humans can prosper, live and work in space. So we focus on those areas.
And that’s why I believe that we look at all the things, ISDC, the Space Forum, you name it, these are great conversations to have. Lots of problems and challenges with it. I’ll say challenges, but incredible, incredible opportunities to really do good.
LP: Karlton, at the end of every episode, we kind of like to add in some fun, get-to-know-you style questions, just to learn a little bit more about the people that we’re speaking with. And so to get us started, what is one of your most frequently watched movies that no matter what you’re doing, if you come across it, you’ll just immediately start watching.
KJ: Wow, let me think, because there’s so many that I really like. You know, I think one of my top 10 is “Apollo 13,” and the main reason for that is, well, it’s based in reality, and it shows…Just picture this. Just picture this. You know, you’re a third of the way to the moon. It hasn’t become just another day to the office. It’s still challenging. But yeah, you’re a third of the way to the moon, and all the sudden, your stuff breaks like it did, and it’s, “Houston, we have a problem.” And all you got is what you got, the three men, this, that, and everything else. And then you got 100,000 people behind you on earth trying to solve a problem with you. And you’re innovating on the way. The fact that they were able to do that and come back alive, that is a testament to the greatness that we can do as humanity when we focus on the right things. And bless his heart, Gene Kranz, going, “Failure is not an option.” I did in the military, and I still carry it with me. I keep a copy of that book, just to emphasize that at the end of the day, when you make the right choices and failure is not an option, you can do anything. So that’s a very inspiring movie for me.
JC: Karlton, as Luca and I have hosted this podcast, we’ve learned something. When you ask people about what they like, they’ll be happy to tell you about what they like. But when you ask them about what they dislike and what they hate, they’ll be passionate about that answer. And in my next question, I’d love to know what is a food or dish or ingredient that you hate?
KJ: Wow, wow. All right, so you’re probably gonna not gonna like my answer, and it’s not a politically correct answer. It’s really who I am. I actually have made a personal choice to not hate anything, and that’s because, for example, my significant other is a foodie, a total foodie. Now, back in the day, there were certain things I would eat and certain things I wouldn’t. And she has reintroduced to me the idea of you got to be open to new things. And therefore what I have now shifted my thinking to be is I don’t hate, like, in terms of food. For example, I don’t hate any food. What I will say is, I’ll try it three times to see if it’s something I want to try a fourth. And at least I can say in my life, hey, I tried that. Did it three times, and then that kills the ongoing question of, do you like it or not? Because, you know, I think there’s actually to kind of pull this around to why I think that it’s easy to hate unfortunately, and I think that’s where we have a lot of these challenges that we won’t go into today. And because of that, I think it starts with the simple things. If you’re willing to hate food, then you’re willing to hate something else. But if you take a moment to go, “Yeah, you know, I may not necessarily eat it all the time, but it has its characteristics.” And, you know, there you go. That’s how I try to look at, not only what I do, at the small but at the great as well.
JC: What a great answer. I’ll wrap up with our last question. Is there a song that, if you never had to hear it again, you would be extremely happy?
KJ: See, I think this falls into the same thing. You know this. And again, this is an interesting question, because growing up, I grew up with certain music, with my family and everything else. And then in university, I took a music appreciation course, and it was the history of music, and I learned through that, that music in itself, yeah, it’s entertaining people, it’s pleasing the ear and so forth. But there’s always a why behind the what, you know. For example, when the Beatles created their music, why did their music become so pervasive in America? And as I did that research and study, again, I wasn’t a Beatles fan, you know, up until that point. I’m like, Wow, this makes so much sense. So then I went back and I listened to the music, and it’s like, wow, this is good. So where I am now is, I really like all kinds of music. I try to explore as much as I can. There are days that I might like rock and roll more than I like rhythm and blues. And there are days that I might, believe it or not, find something really esoteric, like Joyson, and I can’t remember the actual song, but it’s an Indian song that I saw in a movie. What is that? It’s in my head now, but it’s got a great beat and everything, as well as actually learning Indian language and so forth, and same thing with Spanish and other things. So what I’ll tell you is this, I think I like all kinds of music, and I like different music better at different times. It all depends on my mood, but I can’t think of a single song that I wouldn’t want to hear again. I probably, to be honest with you, I probably would tick people off, because there’s some things I’ll just play over and over again, just because I like it. Like, “Aren’t you done with this?” “No. One more round. One more round.” So there you go.
JC: Perfect. Luca?
LP: Karlton, thank you so much for your time today. If any of our listeners want to learn more about the National Space Society and the work that you’re doing, how can they get more information?
KJ: Oh, absolutely. There’s a website we have. The URL is https://nss.org. And on that site, you can see everything that’s going on to include, I believe, on the front page right now, information about the upcoming ISDC. And I did mention this before, but we as an organization go on Capitol Hill each year with other entities. It’s called a March Storm, and we do congressional visits. This year, March Storm is March 16 through 18. And there are a lot of policy things that we will be advocating. So if people are interested in either participating in that or want to inform us on things that they find important that they will like a congressional leader to hear, you can share that information with us via our website.
LP: Perfect. Well, thank you to everyone who tuned into this episode. And Karlton, thank you again for helping us go “Gov & Beyond.”
Outro: Thank you for joining us on today’s episode of “Gov & Beyond.” To learn more about our podcast and hear all of our episodes. Please visit us at w2comm.com/govandbeyond, and make sure to follow us on LinkedIn and Twitter at Govandbeyond. You can also subscribe anywhere podcasts are found.